Trading up
PROGRAMMING NOTE: Make sure to click on the show widget on the side of the page to hear today's webcast of "Purple, Gold and Blue." Technology permitting, we'll be talking with ESPN The Magazine's Molly Knight -- an occasional Blue Notes contributor -- about all the managerial machinations. At noon. If you missed the live broadcast, you can still listen/download the podcast. Same widget. BK
My belief that in baseball, as in most professional sports (with the possible exception of the NFL ... but that's a debate for another day/site), coaches/managers tend to get too much blame when things go poorly and too much credit when they go well isn't exactly a state secret. Nor is my stance that Grady Little wasn't the primary reason that down the stretch the Dodgers collapsed like a Ponzi scheme gone wrong. For the record, that public enemy No. 1 was the collapse of the pitching staff.
But there's no question that the manager matters, and my position has always been that to fire Little to make a lateral, Jim Tracy-esque move wouldn't have done much good, and might have had the opposite effect. Yes, Grady-haters, it could actually be worse (ha ha). But if a better option was available, someone who would constitute a clear upgrade, I had no problem with the Dodgers making a move.
I think Joe Torre would qualify.
It's not that the guy is infallible. Cue up a few New York papers and you'll find them riddled with complaints about his work. I've read that he'll grind pitchers into the ground, that he's got too short a leash for young kids, he's too faithful to vets, etc. Whatever. Finding fault with the hometown skip is a sport in and of itself in every major league city. What Torre has, though, is an undeniable track record of success in a city with media pressures that relative to L.A. are off the charts. He's won with homegrown talent, he's won with pricey free agents. He's become an iconic figure in the baseball universe, one who is respected by just about everyone (OK, maybe not Gary Sheffield).
In short, the man has gravitas.
Ned Colletti said in yesterday's conference call that had Little wanted to return, they would have happily let him, despite Torre's semi-sudden appearance on the managerial free-agent market. I'm not sure if I completely buy that line, but if it was true my next question would be simple. Why? Again, I'm not talking about dumping Grady for anyone walking near the Ravine wearing a Dodgers hat. Torre's availability constituted an opportunity to provide stability and improve the team, both in terms of quality of work and credibility among fans, media and players. Why not take it?
Fans should be careful not to assume that Torre's impending arrival solves every Blue problem. I don't think he'd have made the '07 Dodgers a pennant winner. Nor do I think the possible signing of A-Rod (still a long, long way from becoming anything but a hypothetical) makes their troubles go away. He'd be a great fit in the lineup, but as things stand even with A-Rod, they'd have a great manager, a potentially dynamic lineup and a pitching staff with question marks.
That'll sound familiar to fans of the pinstripe.
There's still more work to be done.
-- BK
Subscribe to this Blog | What is RSS?
BK.
I like what Torre can bring.... but I have a question for you or anyone else here.
One thing that we know less about is how Torre fares day to day when dealing with the differences in strategy that come up in NL play where there is no DH.
One thing that drove us all crazy about Grady was his bizarre decisions to let pitchers hit in key spots and then pull them in the top of the next inning after they gave up a hit. Part of this might have been his now infamous 'hunches', similar to the ones that said that when Loney hit a couple HRs he'll suddenly get too tired to pick up a bat so Olmaedo got the nod and the like, but part of it might have been a lack of feel for those situations in general.
So the question ... do we know what was Torre's record like as an NL manager, and since then in these situations, e.g. playing interleague play in NL ballparks? How does he deal with those kind of strategic wrinkles?
I know it's just one small part of the whole package, and he brings so much in other terms (gravitas, respect, calming of the clubhouse, winning record etc) that even if this was a worry I'd still be for the signing... but I'm still kind of curious.
Posted by: CleoMG | October 31, 2007 at 11:47 AM
I believe that Mr. Joe Torre would be a great fit to the DODGERS. I could not be any happier that FORREST resigned?....... way to go Grady!!!! Glad to know that NED took his loss and finally realized that Little's and Ned's brain were not COMPATIBLE AT ALL !!!!
I strongly believe that TORRE will find a way to push OUR KIDS AND get this new WINNING ERA going. Also, If STINGY MCCOURT reallllllly wants to turn this boat around, sign AROD AND this town will once again be excited for good reasons. Just imagine, we drew over 4mil.........just imagine how crazy it would be with a couple of good SUPERSTARS here in DODGER town..........
GO BLUE
Posted by: JC Blue | October 31, 2007 at 12:28 PM
Bk,
"My belief that in baseball, as in most professional sports... coaches/managers tend to get too much blame when things go poorly and too much credit when they go well isn't exactly a state secret."
You, sir, are discounting the value of an insightful, winning coach in professional sports WAY too much. Take professional Dodgeball, for instance. Would Team Average Joe's have had a snowball's chance in Riyadh if it weren't for the unflappable leadership of Patches O'Houlihan??? Would anyone besides Old Patches have the gravitas to teach the squad that "if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball???" I think not...
http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/twentieth_century_fox/dodgeball__a_true_underdog_story/_group_photos/alan_tudyk2.jpg
Posted by: DodgerBlueBalls | October 31, 2007 at 12:35 PM
The NL is NOT the planet MARS!!!
I think the players will be delighted to play for the most well-known manager in the game.
GREAT DAY FOR ALL!!
Posted by: Steve M. | October 31, 2007 at 12:59 PM
BK
The two things Torre brings to the club. Stability and a proven track record. We may disagree over a decision that Torre makes next year, but at least it will not be a dumb decision. Also, when the Dodgers go thru a long losing streak(and they will), I think we will have much more faith in Joe than Grady because of his track record. I think Joe's influence in the clubhouse is impeccable and we will see this regularly.
Joe also has a huge advantage over some because of him manageing in the AL. The pitchers, other managers ect. He also will mesh the Kids with the Vets well.
If Joe Torre coming to LA helps bring A-Rod to the Dodgers, it will be worth it. Also, Don Mattingly.
I agree that Ned is stretching what happened a little bit. I think maybe his behind is also on the line. The continual importing of washed up Giant personnel is getting a little old but he deserves a chance to come out of it.
Posted by: Package | October 31, 2007 at 01:00 PM
Good riddance to that lame Grady little what a moron and idiot.welcome aboard to the blue crew MR. Joe Torre and i hope A ROD follows behind.
Posted by: Ken Landers | October 31, 2007 at 01:19 PM
The NL is not planet Mars compared to the AL, but you'd be forgiven for thinking so given the way the Dodgers have played in interleague play the last couple years.
Either way, there are differences in terms of strategy, and I'm just curious about what's happened as far as Torre's record. I think Torre brings enough to the table whatever the outcome, as I said in my post, but I'm interested.
Posted by: CleoMG | October 31, 2007 at 01:31 PM
I can understand why you'd be concerned about him managing NL ball since he's coming from the AL.......but folks........come on...........what bugged me the most about Grady the moron Little was his RIDIUCLOUS LINEUPS!!..........I know there are people who didnt like his lineups..........but why does it feel sometimes as if people's number one problem with Grady the moron Little was his RIDICULOUS LINEUPS!..............I mean it was his RIDICULOUS LINEUPS that bugged me the most about the way he managed the Dodgers!!
Posted by: Aryan | October 31, 2007 at 01:44 PM
Good riddance to Grady-Poker-Face-Little, good riddance (I hope) to Garciaparra and his tap-tap-tap-blink-blink-blink-kick-kick-kick-pop-up, good riddance (I hope) to I'd-Rather-Be-Back-at-my-Ranch-Jeff Kent, good riddance to I-Can't-Hit-My-Weight Killer Tomato, etc., etc., etc.
I've been in an actual better mood since I found out about Torre coming to L.A. That's gotta count for something.
Posted by: glenn | October 31, 2007 at 02:02 PM
I guess it has to be one step at a time. Strategy and managing the clubhouse and team are important, but at least we should not be left scratching our collective heads over lineups. Somehow, I can't see Torre hitting Olmedo 4th, just to get him some at bats. The decisions should make far more sense.
Posted by: Chunkdog32 | October 31, 2007 at 02:09 PM
I don't know if I would call McCourt stingy, with one of the largest payrolls in baseball. Money hungry maybe...
Posted by: Andy B | October 31, 2007 at 02:16 PM
Did anyone read TJ SIMERS ridiculous article?.............i cannot believe some of the stuff he put down!!............For example........He said.......
"Dodgers fans never did embrace Little, which really doesn't speak well of Dodgers fans"
Are you kidding me?....Were supposed to embrace a guy who put out SOOOO MANY RIDIUCLOUS LINEUPS?.....Was he not aware of h ow many times this moron of a manager benched guys that desereved to play or were hot?.....Or how many times he put out lineups that made you wonder what the blank is wrong with him?
He also said:
"Little was also Forrest Gump and an easy sap to blame for all that continues to go wrong with what has become a second-rate organization"
I mean come on does he think were that stupid that we just blame him because hes easy to slap around?.......What kinda moron is this writer?.......We "slapped" him around because he made so many nutty lineups and in-game decisions!!
He also said:
"Many of his managerial moves were second-guessed, fans buying the team's annual hype that it was better than it was performing, thus, the manager must be to blame"
Ok so on one hand he admits that his moves were second guessed, but then on the other hand he makes it seem like we were all just blaming him because we got suckered into the idea that the Dodgers were better then they really are......I mean what the hell is wrong with this writer?.......SOME OF US FANS know our Dodgers. Were not casual fans who just assume the Dodgers are good because management tells us there good......And we didnt blame Grady the moron Little because he "MUST BE TO BLAME".............is this writer for real?
He also said:
"But try to win with Bill Mueller at third for a day or so, or without Jason Schmidt pitching, or Juan Pierre playing center field"
COMMMMMMMMMME ON!!!!!.......Bill Mueller was hardly used.....And yes Jason Schmidt was injured, but we still had good pitching, and one pitcher doesnt make or break the season........and about JUAN PIERRE......ok......now im really annoyed.......I mean Grady is the manager!!!......He made the decision to play his second son JUAN PIERRE and he rarley ever benched him.............instead........he platooned MATT KEMP & ANDRE EITHIER..........even when JUAN PIERRE WAS DOING BAD, Grady Little usually stuck with him.................and yet this TJ SIMERS is acting like Grady had no choice???..........
.What kinda moron is TJ SIMERS
Posted by: Aryan Sood | October 31, 2007 at 02:20 PM
Grady Little had a real knack for sticking with pitchers until the lead was out of reach for the Dodgers. Then he would trot out Rudy Seanez. I grew so sick of watching him give away games. Also, the fact that James Loney was sent to the minors at the beginning of the season in more than enough reason to fire both Little and Colletti. That ranks up there with trading for Delino DeShields.
Torre isn't the messiah, but I haven't been this excited about an off-season signing since Daryl Strawberry stunk out the Ravine.
Posted by: Steve-O | October 31, 2007 at 03:02 PM
Bring back Jim Tracy?
Posted by: cjmsheng | October 31, 2007 at 05:49 PM
DodgerBlueBalls-
An excellent illustration of your point, sir!
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | October 31, 2007 at 06:03 PM
Hey I noticed Jeff Weaver and Odalis are available!!! Retreading them might fit in fine with Ned's style. What say you Ned? I sure hope the free agent deals make more sense this year than last. We can't afford another JP on the roster.
Posted by: Butch | October 31, 2007 at 06:42 PM
BK i called this one!
remember a few weeks ago right when the yankees were getting rid of torre
i asked you
"would torre be a good fit for the dodgers?"
you never replied
Posted by: dave m | October 31, 2007 at 06:52 PM
dave m-
Sorry I didn't see it. But my answer would have been "yes."
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | October 31, 2007 at 07:19 PM
With Little stating in the conference call that the decision to resign was "mutal" should say it all. Frustrating, disappointment and becoming livid at times
the past two years, especially last year, I fully understand and completely agree with the Torre move. Being a lifelong Dodger Blue fan stuck in Texas, One really has to be totally blind and stupid not to understand and realize the smoke screen demonstrated by management over the Little resignation and hiring of Torre. It's a business MOVE, simple as that and is done everyday .....upgrading is nothing more than breeding success, the fans deserve to be given the truth and the best team out there. Cancer has been proved, if not treated IMMEDIATELY, can spread rapidly and out of control, hence last year. I applaud the Torre hiring, just not the way it has been handled as if we the fans are both stupid and naive, we aren't, but what we INDEED are - is UNDERSTANDING if given the facts. If Colletti realized that - then he wouldn't have had to and continues to - SPIN this entire affair. Sometimes situations just simply get out of hand, personalities DO NOT fit, Little is a fine manager, maybe just not the right fit in Dodgertown, given all the difficulties that they experienced this past season and have to still be dealt with, BUT there is a saying and it fits "It's never what you do - it's HOW you do it, and NEVER what you say but rather HOW you say it" things might be accepted with a little more grace and style than it has been thus far presented........
Posted by: Anthony Rickard | November 01, 2007 at 03:32 AM
We New Yorkers are heartbroken over losing our beloved Yankee manager. I know
the Dodger fans will love him the way we did.
I wish you luck next year...and hope that Joe brings you the success he gave us
in New York. There will be a ton of us rooting for the Dodger...and we can rely
on the New York media to let us know how your team is doing.
(On a sour note, is there a team out there willing to take on our Knicks manager?
He is despicable!!!)
Posted by: Rose | November 01, 2007 at 03:52 AM
I don't believe Grady Little was the problem at all. I'm sure Joe Torre is not the solution. If A-Rod is not in the future, then Colletti has to trade Kemp and a young arm for a front line pitcher. Signing a Mike Lowell type of player is not helping. See last year's team.
Posted by: Faraway fan | November 01, 2007 at 05:13 AM
Furcal ss
Nomar 3b
loney 1b
T hunter cf
kemp lf
martin c
either rf
abrau 2b
Posted by: PK-IN-THE-MESA | November 01, 2007 at 10:28 AM
PK,
Nice try, but what are you doing with Juan Pierre? Do you honestly think management will let his 9 million dollard salary sit on the bench? And you can't simply say trade Juan - who in their right mind will accept Juan's noodle arm and the 4 years/$36 million remaining on his contract? Like it or not, we're stuck with Pierre for at least a couple of years.
I don't think ToriI Hunter is the answer, either. Torii has only hit over 30hr in a season once, has only had 2 seasons with 100+ RBI's, and never had a season with a avg higher than .300. I will grant you that is defense and arm are 2nd to none, but his last eight seasons have been spent playing on the unforgiving turf of the H.H.H. Metrodome. Torii has a crazy knee injury waiting to happen at any moment. ARod is a better option at a position which the Dodgers have the most glaring need to fill: 3rd base.
Posted by: 619KingsFan | November 01, 2007 at 02:22 PM