An article that doesn't have much to do with the Dodgers...
Although maybe a little bit, in a very roundabout way.
ESPN.com's Jeff Pearlman took an interesting look at Mets GM Omar Minaya, who's taken some heat over the team's influx of Latin players. Some Mets fans feel Minaya's heritage creates a natural inclination towards players of similar backgrounds and that said inclination has gotten out of hand. Blog posters have accused Minaya of (at minimum) prioritizing the best Latin players ahead of the best white or black counterpart or (at worst) enacting a racist policy. Pearlman takes exception to this Metropolitan outcry, but he understands where the disenfranchised (and those actually applauding Minaya if this characterization is accurate) would be on the lookout for more players to "call their own." Pearlman recalls his own hero worship towards Steve Ratzer and Ross Baumgarten as a Jewish kid growing up in New York, so the idea of identifying with players along those lines hardly strikes him as anything out of the ordinary.
But is it appropriate would be the question, I guess.
Two points. First, the Mets situation, which will be brief, because I don't know their ins and outs well enough to competently evaluate every move Minaya's made (and in particular, who was available and passed over). They have compiled a 278-218 record and won a division title during his three seasons, so he's doing something reasonably well. Even if he is on the lookout for Latin players (and again, I don't have the first clue), at the very least, he's apparently picking some useful ones. And at the risk of sounding un-PC, there are a lot of Latin players in today's game, so it's not exactly eyebrow-raising to find a clubhouse with a sizable contingency. As long as players of other races aren't flying under the Mets' radar while Minaya is scooping up average-at-best Latin guys, I don't see what the problem is.
As for the notion of fans being drawn towards players of similar heritage, the Dodger history contains seminal examples of this trend. I doubt any of our readers are old enough to remember Jackie Robinson breaking the color line and becoming a worldwide black hero (although if any do, by all means, share the experience), but some may recall Sandy Koufax dominating in the 60's. Having seen first hand the Jewish community's pride in Koufax twenty years after his prime while growing up in St. Louis, I'm willing to venture Los Angeles' Jewish population was more than a little energized when the man born Sanford Braun was active. The 80's produced Fernando-Mania, which not only brought to light a sizable and local Mexican fan base, but spotlighted the city's vibrant community in general. Hideo Nomo broke barriers for Japanese baseball players and Japanese fans in L.A. (creating the chance for Takashi Saito to make his entrance that, as you can see, gives a nod to his Far East roots). All of these players were embraced by the L.A. community, but represent a tipping point of sorts for those sharing their ethnicity. Like Pearlman, this strikes me as natural and nothing remotely negative, assuming you're not actively rooting against someone "outside your circle" (which strikes me as horribly counterproductive for any fan seeking a championship season. But hey, I'm sure a few racial-centric loons do exist.).
But I'm curious to get the feedback of the people who've spent more time both in L.A. and following the Dodgers closely than myself. Do you find yourself rooting for players of similar heritage (and do you think other Blue family members and fans in general do the same)? Have you ever felt like Valenzuela or Nomo dominating headlines on a cultural scale alienated Dodger fans unfamiliar with their backgrounds? Or worse, fans throwing less (or even no support) towards players outside of their ethnicity? I'm guessing the answer is predominately "no," since I think sports is arguably society's greatest eraser when it comes to racial differences. Obviously, it doesn't make any and all problems vanish. I'm certainly not naive enough to believe that. But for the most part, I wholeheartedly believe that players put aside varying backgrounds and cultures the minute a uni is shared. I've seen many an athlete grow tight with a teammate they have absolutely nothing in common with outside of a desire to win together. And in trickle down effect, I think fans greatly tend to accept whoever is playing for their team- no matter where they come from or the color of their skin- assuming he plays hard, plays well and doesn't act like a jerk. Like I said, I know a few scattered fans here and there will not only play favorites but pick goats along racial lines. But I also think they're the exception that proves the more sensible and tolerant rule.
Agree? Disagree?
-AK
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Once they button up the Dodger jersey, I root that they smoke a line drive double off the wall in either gap, maybe even beat it out for a triple. Why in the world would a player's skin color have anything to do with hoping your Centerfielder will come up clean will the ball after that all-out dive onto the warning track ? Gimme a break, sure small minds are out there - be sure to steer clear of 'em - they are'nt worth your time.
Posted by: ALS | December 10, 2007 at 09:58 PM
i think its just human nature to root for someone of your own ethnicity. but in a more broader way, as a minority, i do tend to root more for other minority athletes on the dodgers. though they may be of a different color they are a fellow minority and i feel as if i can related more to them and there struggles. because as hard as republicans try to make you believe there view of the world, its not a leveled field ... this is true in sports and the real world.
it was not written much of, but since we are on the topic, i was really angered that the dodgers asked for and were granted permission to skip interviewing minority managers. i don't care if he is joe torre, and the dodgers have a lot of minority hirings ... what they did was wrong. and it's a shame this happened to jackie's team. what? are the dodgers above baseball regulations now concerning equality. minority managers from all sports aren't asking for special treatment, just the opportunity to be heard and prove there worth. and if that takes a few minutes or half an hour for a simple interview then they should be afforded that. shame on you mccourt. in my opinion you've tarnished the dodger brand.
Posted by: 88 | December 10, 2007 at 10:08 PM
Easy 88 - the Dodgers KNEW who they wanted to hire. They probably told Selig, "Look, we've decided to hire Torre. You want us to go through the shenanigans of interviewing a bunch of people - wasting thier time, and ours, or can we forget the whole ruse, and take care of business."
Posted by: ALS | December 10, 2007 at 10:22 PM
88/ALS,
The reason the Dodgers were given permission by Selig to bypass the minority hiring interview process to hire Torre was because of its strong track record of hiring minorities. Kim Ng (asst. GM/VP) immediately comes to mind, but the staff is close to 40% with minorities and women.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/01/sports/baseball/01chass.html?ex=1351569600&en=a9a210a646a6694f&ei=5089&partner=rssyahoo&emc=rss
88, I don't know if that makes you feel any better about the situation, but it might at least clarify it a bit, if nothing else.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | December 10, 2007 at 10:32 PM
It wasn't too long ago that Italians were considered minorities. I've been told they had to put up with quite alot of discrimination, back in the day, in NY. You should be happy, 88...........
Posted by: ALS | December 10, 2007 at 10:47 PM
Melanin!!!!! Thats what your talking about, if you root for people based on the amount of melanin in their body, your not a racist your just a little uneducated. There is no difference between humans except for a few visible traits in the phenotype caused by the melanin levels passed on to the zygote through conception. Your DNA strands are the same, in fact there's only a percentage point or so difference between you and a chimpanzee. I'm not an anthropologist so maybe Im a little off, but I'm pretty sure I'm basically right. Everything on this planet is related to you and part of your heritage on a long enough time line.
I just like to watch the Dodgers, I don't know about the rest of you.
Posted by: Josh McDonald | December 10, 2007 at 11:47 PM
I'm a middle class WASP, which would seemingly make me the most sensitive to the apparent reduction of professional athletes from my "circle", but as another reader put it, as "soon as they put on that Dodgers jersey" I couldn't care less what background they come from.
Honestly, I don't even notice players' backgrounds and believe the vast majority of fans feel the same.
Whatever prejudices I have toward Dodgers players has much more to do with whether they've ever played for the Giants, or whether they pull their weight on the field.
I'm proud of Robinson, Valenzuela, Koufax and Campanella and I'm embarassed of Chad Curtis, Darren Dreifort and Todd Hundley...
All that matters is that the Dodgers win, no matter what circle they're from.
Posted by: Luke | December 11, 2007 at 01:35 AM
Once they put on the shirt all I see is a Dodger. Heritage has very little to do with who I root for and why. I root for the team, I root for each player's success and I hope (Oh, how I hope) that they'll one day get back into the Series.
Posted by: Wayne | December 11, 2007 at 04:42 AM
I root for whoever is playing for the Dodgers. I like my team to win and win often. I don't care what ethnic background they are or even if that player has come from the Hated Gints, just because they finally have seen the light and put on the BLUE, they are ok with me.
Posted by: K T USN | December 11, 2007 at 07:16 AM
In regards to the Dodgers skirting the rules on interviewing a minority candidate, I agree with 88, they shouldn't have done it. I realize that they would have hired Torre anyway but that's not the point. The point is not that some minority candidate would have been so impressive that he would have leap-frogged Torre. That may occur in other interview situations but obviously not this one. But that the candidate gets some time with the front-office folks and get a chance to make an impression. This may help somewhere down the line as front-office folks talk and might mention that so-and-so had a good interview. Or if someone involved in the interview ends up working for another club they might bring so-and-so back if they impressed. We all know that interviews can matter even if ultimately not offered the job, either by being excellent practice or by opening up doors later on. The Dodgers should have followed the rules.
Posted by: kj | December 11, 2007 at 07:43 AM
As a fan since 1955 and being white, my 'favorite' Dodgers were George Shuba, Gino Cimoli, Tommy Davis (my all time favorite), Pedro Guerrero, Orel Hershiser, Eric Karros and now James Loney. No racial preferance of any kind for me.
Regarding Minaya, living in NY like I do, the problem with the Mets is not Latin players but lack of good pitching....sound familiar?
Posted by: DODGER 1955 | December 11, 2007 at 08:59 AM
As stated by the others, if is natural to follow the careers of menbers of your country or ethnic group. I rooted for Shawn Green when he was with LA. But now I 'hate' him as much as Barry Bonds, Paul LoDuca, Moises Alou and anyone else who plays against us. Back in the 60's and 70's I remeber that my favorite players on the Dodgers were Snider and Drysdale, not Koufax. Go no!
David
Posted by: David | December 11, 2007 at 09:13 AM
I very much agree with "Luke" except I am hispanic and to me the race or ethnicity of a player doesn't matter in the slightest. If he's a Dodger I am pulling for him. Findlay? Brett Butler? When they were Dodgers I was solidly a fan of theirs. Yet, some guys for whatever reason never seem to really BECOME "Dodgers" and I can't explain why I feel that way. To me Nomar bleeds Dodger Blue even though his best years were across the country. - I was lucky enough to be there on the 4 consecutive HR night in September '06 when he hit the winning bomb against the Madres...so maybe that explains him. What of other players that to me never seem like Dodgers? Jeff Kent is currently one to me.
Maybe its because I like players with some humility - which is why I really disliked Sheff, why I got ticked off with Raul for running his mouth at the end of his days with us, why I hated Milton even though he plays like his tail feathers are on fire. Kent is a surly guy. I hope Kemp (assuming he stays with us) doesn't turn out ot be an egotistical jerk. This is another reason I really like Ethier so far. He comes to play, when he tailed off in '06 - no excuses, he came back and played harder. He shuts his mouth and gets after it. I love that.
Posted by: Dan in Pasadena | December 11, 2007 at 10:56 AM
Let's look at the current Mets starting lineup:
C Schneider (white)
1B Delgado (latino)
2B Castillo (latino)
3B Wright (white)
SS Reyes (latino)
LF Church (white)
CF Beltran (latino)
RF Alou? (latino)
SP
Martinez (latino)
Hernandez (latino)
Perez (latino)
Maine (white)
Humber/Pelfrey (white)
CL
Wagner (white)
Aside from the absense of black and Asian players (who are truly minorities in baseball), there really doesn't seem to be a lot wrong with the picture above. Of the 15 names listed above, 7 of them are white, the rest latino. Is that so strange? Especially considering that Beltran and Reyes are among the top players in their respective positions, and Delgado and Martinez were the top players available when they were signed. What is Minaya going to do? Pass up the opportunity to make the best team possible just to fill some kind of equal opportunity quota?
To answer your question, AK, as a Japanese American myself, I do enjoy a little bit of cultural pride when Japanese players do well in the major leagues. Nomomania was great, and watching Saito blow guys away in the ninth does give me a little more satisfaction than if he were some other closer, say, Jeff Shaw. But in the general scheme of things, that's such a small part of my fan experience that it doesn't make a difference for me at all one way or the other. It didn't bother me one bit when the Koreans came out to watch Chan Ho Park pitch, just like Viva Los Dodgers and Nomar cooking carne asada in the outfield don't bother me now.
I 'hate' Matsuzaka as badly as I hate everything else about the Red Sox. I root against Ichiro, both Matsui's, and any other Japanese player whenever they are in a situation that negatively affects the Dodgers. I'm sure that I'll be among the biggest Fukudome haters if he ends up with the Padres next season. I am a big proponent of the idea that Ned Colletti sign Hiroki Kuroda, but that has a lot more to do with the fact that he is the best pitching option available on the FA market, and the fact that signing him is the quickest way to lay to rest all of the horrible Matt Kemp for _______ rumors flying around these days.
Posted by: Makoto Ueno | December 11, 2007 at 11:01 AM
I wish we'd stop with the race stuff. Sports is in fact the great eraser: you succeed or fail based on your performance.
I also wish we'd stop rooting for shirts. It's not appropriate to root for a player just because he's a Dodger. Milton Bradley was a Dodger, and he nevver stoppedd being a first class jerk. JD Drew was a Dodger, and he was a stiff in blue as he is in Red Sox, Cardinal red, Braves tomahawk, whatever. Too often, I see sports fans come to the defense of asses simply because "he's OUR ass." Witness the Michael Vick defenders on the Falcons last night.
Free Mike Vick? Why? He's guilty of running a dogfighting operation and of orchestrating the killing of animals. To compare him to Muhammad Ali is preposterous.
How about we root for players who give their all, hustle on the field, don't beat their wives off the field, don't cheat by using steroids, and have a kind word for the fans and the media when the game is over?? Is that too much to expect?
I get the impression that Russell Martin is that kind of player, which is why he's my favorite Dodger. Shaun Green seemed to be that kind of guy too, and I was sad that they traded him away (basically for nothing). On other teams, Derek Jeter fits the mold; so does Kevin Youkilis, Omar Vizquel, Greg Maddux, and Paul LoDuca. Vizquel's Latino, Martin's black, LoDuca's Italian. No one ethnicity has a monopoly on being a true sportsman. I wish more teams would stock their rosters with those kinds of players.
And as long as we're at it, can we leave God out of the equation? God does not care who wins baseball games, who has "God-given" talent, who has the ability to overrcome adversity, or who is more devoted. Success on the field is a result of talent, hard work, intelligence, anticipation, and luck.
Posted by: SaMo | December 11, 2007 at 11:02 AM
I identified with and therefore rooted a little more for Park and Choi because of our shared culture and heritage; it's like pulling for that guy from your neighborhood who made it to the Bigs.
But I'll say this - I was angry when Chan Ho left for the money and I felt vindicated when his career went south with the Rangers and esp. the Padres. I booed Hee Sop Choi and his empty uppercut out of town. And unfortunately, the Dodgers think they can revive Park's career when all they'll get in return are opponents' home runs.
I was also disappointed that the Dodgers did not bother to interview a minority candidate for manager. Even if they had Torre in mind, they should have given someone AT LEAST THE OPPORTUNITY to knock their socks off.
Posted by: bigyoonit | December 11, 2007 at 11:42 AM
I think we baseball fans are lucky that the world's greatest players want to play here in the US. I wonder how long that will be true. I'm proud of the Dodgers' role in spurring the introduction of blacks, Latinos from various countries and Asians into baseball rosters. The great thing about baseball is the way the players show so much of who they are by their body language -- the way they swing, their windup, their style on the field, their demeanor in the dugout. My favorite Dodgers over the years have been marked not by their ethnicity or country of origin, but the way they play. Valenzuela and Nomo were pioneers, to be sure, but they were also players with a natural charisma who were fun to watch. Gagne had it. LoDuca had it. Of the current players, it is a joy to watch Saito, Furcal (more in 06 when he was healthy), Martin, Loney and Kemp. So it's got nothing to do with where you came from, but the diversity has enriched the experience.
Posted by: Vail Beach | December 11, 2007 at 11:47 AM
kj,
I understand your logic, buy why should only minority candidates get the opportunity to make an impression? You're saying that it's OK for a no-name white candidate to not get the chance to interview with the Dodgers, but it's a crying shame if he happened to be a minority (or a she)?
If the point of the minority hiring rules were strictly to allow lesser known candidates to get 'face time' with future employers, then the rules should apply to everyone, and race/gender would not be an issue at all.
Posted by: Makoto Ueno | December 11, 2007 at 01:06 PM
at least kj and bigyoonit understand what i'm getting at here with the dodger hireing of torre. its great that the dodgers have hired minorities but that is no excuse to go around the rules. the reason for this process is to break down 'institutionalized' racism in the league. this type of racism is the type that is not in your face but is hidden and subtle ... behind closed doors and in decision making. its a way of making decsion makers meet different types of people who they might not normally have thought of interviewing in the first place.
its a foot in the door for minorities to be heard. yes i agree they probably would have hired torre regardless, but they took away the opportuntity for others to make an empression. and this is important later on down the line when the dodgers or others might be hiring. how long do you think torre's gonna manage the dodgers? 2 - 3 years? who they gonna interview to replace him ... well according to the news there grooming matingly to take his place. well thats all nice and dandy but is he all there considering? what if there was a minority who really made a good impression in the interview and he's considered the best replacement. but that chance was not given because the dodgers think themselves better than the rules.
i would also like to speak on this supposed 'great' dodger tradition of hiring minorities. how many of these minorities hold prominent positions in the organization? the higest is ng but shes an assistant to colletti. the dodgers have never had a colored manager or general manager. this is an important point because those are the most powerful/glamorous positions. maybe they still believe that minoities don't have the mental capacity to hold those seats. its a shame. they pat themselves on the back thinking they are above everyother organization in the league but they are not. in a lot of ways they are so much behind.
Posted by: 88 | December 11, 2007 at 01:07 PM
We as a nation must never forget the part that race and gender play in how we operate as a nation or as a baseball league. Whether it is the Irish and Italians of the 19th century or the Blacks, Jews, Latinos, or women of the 20th century, how The US chooses to treat and accept the minority will be watched by other countries. The US has made itself the banner of tolerance around the world, and if we choose to give that up, who then will champion the cause of the "... tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free". Because of this, we as a country must always examine our relationship to minorities.
Posted by: richard | December 11, 2007 at 02:04 PM
88 - Yes, but did you understand what Makoto was getting at ? He makes a good point with his 1:06 pm post.
___
SaMo also makes a good point regarding the Bonds and Milt-type players.
Speaking of Milt - His new Manager - Ron Washington - used to be a coach of his during his time with the A's. Maybe Ron thinks he can change Milt's stripes......
Whats the over/under on the amount of games Milt plays before he has his first mental eruption with the Rangers ? 25, 30........
Posted by: ALS | December 11, 2007 at 02:49 PM
When I was a lad, my "friends" (?) were anti-Dodger because they had an African-American (that is not the term they used as I am sure you understand) on the team but in my childish innocence, I could not see what skin color had to do with his ability to play baseball, so I became a Dodger fan. I am a white American and I have been an unwavering Dodger fan ever since and I will soon celebrate my 70th birthday. Guess what? I still don't see what the color of one's skin has to do with his ability to play baseball. Yes, there are still ignorant and bigoted people out there and they are an embarrassment to fine people everywhere. Maybe the day will come when all of that is stamped out, but I truly doubt it. I can honestly say that my all-time favorite Dodger is Roy Campanella and I certainly have been strong followers of Koufax and Shawn Green (different religious beliefs), Fernando, Nomo, Seito, all of different nationalities from mine and, I am sure, many others who were much different in many ways from myself. I do not judge a player by his religion (or lack of it although I do look at character) or his race or nationality but rather their athletic abilities. I am a Dodger fan all the way, win or lose and have no intentions to change now. I do continue to favor most ex-Dodgers, especially if they left through no fault of their own (traded vs free agency) and even some who left due to free agency depending on the circumstances. I don't want them do do too well against the Dodgers, but do want to see them do well against others.
Posted by: Carl Creasman | December 11, 2007 at 03:40 PM
I'm with you Carl - I still root for and check the box scores for Piazza, Lo Duca, Green, etc....That said - I don't necessarilly root for their team - -the Mets, for example, 'could care less what they do (MAN, what a collapse last season, hunh )?
Of course, while I'm at it - I also check how Milt, JD, etc. are doing too - but I wouldn't say I'm ROOTING for 'em......
Beltre falls in-between somewhere - mostly I feel a sense of regret (for his sake and the fan's sake - for some reason I think he woulda been more productive at the plate for the Dodgers than he's been with the Mariners).
With the Angels, I'm caught in a quandry - I like Scioscia, Hatcher, etc. but it's tough to root for the Angels......I can't get myself to do it.
Posted by: ALS | December 11, 2007 at 04:33 PM
ALS, makato
yes makato makes a point but it is way off. the point of minority interviewing isn't to give face time to lesser known candidates its to give it to 'minority' candidates wether they be lesser known or not. sorry if i offend you but as i wrote before the idea is to make a leveled playing field. minorities of all color are under represented in this industry ... and in most of america's business world.
Posted by: 88 | December 11, 2007 at 05:32 PM
Hey Dodger Fans - I'm a Brewers fan and wanted to gauge the your interest in a trade proposal. Understandably you guys would like to keep both Kemp and Ethier in the starting line-up but you all know it wont happen with Pierre around. What about lefty starter Chris Capuano and RP Derrick Turnbow for Ethier? We have a need for a left handed corner outfielder and even with the signing of Randy Wolf, I think you guys could use a lefty starter and reliever/ set-up man. What do ya think?
Posted by: BrewCrew | December 11, 2007 at 07:30 PM