A reminder to Dodgers (and Giants) fans everywhere
Yes, the rivalry is heated. Yes, smack talking is expected and even encouraged. But it's still never cool to throw down over your teams in the Ravine parking lot. Never. Especially when doing so leaves a woman legally blind in one eye. Said victim is alleging that stadium security didn't do its part to keep the brouhaha from escalating, thus a lawsuit now in play. The plaintiff's are asking for a mil in damages. We'll see how this shakes out.
As for Dodger matters limited strictly to the field, mlb.com's Ken Gurnick breaks down the upcoming season when it comes to first and third base. I won't reveal which corner feels more solidified, but let's just say job security isn't among James Loney's bigger worries these days.
-AK
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For what its worth, as a life long Dodgers fan, I now actively try to avoid attending the Dodgers v. Giants series anymore. This has been the case for the last two years. Why? The Raider-style rowdy crowd is in attendance in greater numbers then and I am sick of them. I don't go to baseball games to hear F-bombs flying or people throwing ice at a 50-something year old lady because she is wearing a Giants jersey. Yes, I saw this. Her husband was wearing a Dodgers jersey.
Don't you WANT your rival's fans to feel as passionatley about their teams as you do yours? I do. But I don't want to curse them, throw things at them or otherwise do them harm. This is sports people; not warfare. And as tolerant as I am about a LOT of things, I've got no tolerance for people who see sporting events as opportunities to get drunk,scream swear words around chidren, make obscene gestures and generally act like jackasses. Back to the positive; I was VERY pleased to see Goose Gossage elected to the Hall and pleased at his common sense opinions about the use of performance enhancing substances by players and what to do about it. Goose was a Dodger beater (and a lot of other team beaters) to be sure. But he was a fearsome, tenacious competitor. I wonder if younger fans that didn't get to see him in his prime can really understand his dominance. Helene Elliot's column in the Times today was very good.
Posted by: Dan in Pasadena | January 09, 2008 at 03:41 PM
sucks she got sucker punched. should the dodgers be liable? worh a 1 million dollar lawsuit? that's the question...
Can anyone answer my HOF question from the other thread please...
Posted by: MrsThinkBlue | January 09, 2008 at 05:27 PM
Im not sure if this is strictly for giants/dodgers rivalry, but as a padres fan who makes the 2 hour trip north for every SD/LA match up, my opinion is that dodgers stadium is the worst place to visit as an opposing fan. I enjoy trash talk, and feel that is is your duty as a fan to verbally express your support or distaste for a team. However, Chavez is the ONLY stadium ive visited in my life where i was threatened with physical violence. I COULD, under certain circumstances, understand threating discourse between groups of liquored up guys from opposite sides. Yet, in LA it seems that everyone wearing padre blues was subject to the same treatment of beer bottles being thrown, threats of urination in bathrooms, and overall harassment, regardless of age or gender.
If the dodgers want to get serious about surviving the team into the next 20 years they need to find a way to attract a more respectable fan. You guys have the 2nd largest market yet you have the ugliest stadium and fans in the country. It doesn't make any sense... LA is one of the largest tourist destinations in the country and your stadium should reflect that, the way that the cubs, yankees, redsox ect do. Nobody ive ever met who has visited LA said they want to visit Chavez Latrine. Why? Because of the actions of your classless fans...
However, other cities have just as rowdy of fans but do not have the reputation of LA because the stadium controls the situation. It starts from the top and whoever runs security should be fired. As hyper-patriotic as it sounds, a baseball stadium is the one place where you should feel safe to take your family...not true with la.
My $.02
Posted by: From SD | January 10, 2008 at 01:35 AM
Sounds like security did get involved inside the stadium. Are the Dodgers supposed to provide personal escorts for every fan in the stadium? From the accounts I've read, this woman was verbally getting into it with the other fan. The fan who hit her is serving jail time, she just wants the Dodgers to give her money because this other woman probably has none.
I've worn my Dodger hat to games at Candlestick before and had punks come running by trying to knock it off my head. Where was the Giants security in that case?
Posted by: Keith | January 10, 2008 at 05:53 AM
I'm a Padres fan and have attended three games at Dodgers stadium over the past two years. In 2006, I attended the September 17th game where Russel Martin finally broke up Cla Meredith's scoreless streak with a homer to right-center. We had seats in the 300 level, and it was quite a pleasant experience. The stadium was dilapidated, but we were treated like human beings.
The two games I attended in April 2007 (the Friday and Saturday games before the Jackie Robinson game) were absolutely horrible. The Friday night game featured a blowout by the Dogers and the Saturday night game featured a blowout by the Padres. For these games, we had seats down the third base line in the lower level. From the minute we got to the game on Friday night, my wife and I were constantly heckled. We talked no trash, and merely clapped when something good happened for the Padres. Friday night was absolutely brual as we were constantly taunted and verbally threatened (F-bombs and the like) despite the fact that there were several children all around us. The ushers seemed too scared to get involved and just kind of stood there. It finally took repeated comments from the father of one of the small children in front of us to silence the liquored up fools in front of us. The Saturday night game, which I attended with my 50 year-old parents, was even worse than Friday. Unable to stomach the beating they were taking on the field (the same beating the Padres took the night before), things got ughly very very quickly. My mother and my wife were threatened constantly and when we tried to get ushers to intervene, they simply gave us a look of "what do you really want us to do?"
After the two games I attended in April, I will never go back. I'm all for fans being passionate about their team, but the behavior we witnessed in April was just horrible. I sincerely regretted paying money for those tickets and buying concessions at the Stadium, as I felt no desire to financially support a franchise who featured such a hateful fanbase with some timid ushers and other service personnel.
I've attended games at PNC and at Yankee Stadium and have been treated far better than our last two games at Chavez Ravine. I even know Dodgers fans who don't like going to games because of the atmosphere. I think it's truly unfortunate that the baseball atmosphere is so tainted by the poor behavior of several loud and obnoxious fans.
Posted by: Phantom | January 10, 2008 at 09:14 AM
Adding to the list of Padre fans, I've also been treated harshly and witnessed other boorish behavior while supporting the Friars. The most egregious and disgusting act came in a Saturday game. The Padres won in extra innings and of course Trevor got the save. At the final out, a friend and I were cheering the victory and some a-holes walked up to us to talk smack. This made no sense at all, since the Padres had just won, were in first place, and had the opportunity to sweep the 3-game series the next day.
In honor of the win, I had a much nicer Dodger fan take a photo of me, my friend, and some other Friar Faithful. And of course, one of those smack-talking Dodger fans was in the background of the photo flipping of the camera. Why do that? What are you, twelve?
So we leave the seats and are walking to the gate and the same group of clowns are walking near us, continuing to jaw with us. We're not saying anything back to them, other than "Go Padres" or something similar. Nothing personal was said, just team-related shouting. Of course, the asinine jerkwads maintain their complete and utter lack of maturity by slapping off our hats and playing "keepaway" with them.
I'm normally an extremely docile person, but when this happened I freaked out. I got into a bit of shoving match with one guy (who was about 100 lbs heavier and 50 IQ points lower than me), but thankfully Security broke it up and we got out hats back. As we rushed back to the car fearing for our safety, we looked back and saw what was likely going to some sort of detainment for our harassers.
I know the Dodger supporters are going to accuse me and the rest of my Compadres as being whiners or crybabies, but bear in mind all we're doing is supporting our team. And all we want is to feel safe, have a good time, and not get our caps knocked off.
Posted by: A guy who supports a team that has won a postseason game in the past 20 years without Jose Lima | January 10, 2008 at 10:31 AM
Dan/ Phantom/SD/Guy who...
Unfortunately, I'm not surprised to hear these horror tales you're sharing. I have plenty of friends who've experienced trouble in Dodger Stadium. And from time to time, I'll leave the pressbox and sit in the stands with friends for a few innings. On more than a few occasions, the crowd has gotten out of control and fights have broken out.
I can't say for certain whether the Dodger crowd gets more liquored up than other stadiums, since I've only watched games in a handful of places. But there's no question that a sizable contigent gets pretty boozed up and looks to start something. They're not above acting like jerks. It's a shame, because the majority of Dodger fans are respectful, but the bad apples go a long way towards ruining the whole bunch.
Could this stuff be the same everywhere? Again, I don't know for sure, because I don't hit stadiums all over the country. But I do know that growing up in St. Louis and practically living at Busch Stadium, I didn't see nearly this many fights or even just as many episodes of hostile behavior in the stands.
Just being honest.
AK
Posted by: Andrew Kamenetzky | January 10, 2008 at 10:36 AM
AT&T Park up in SF gets pretty nasty too during those rival games. I attended an LA/Giants game and witnessed a gal get hit who was wearing a Dodger jersey by a mean ole Giants fan (an obvious cowardly Giant - as, what guy hits a gal?)... On another outing, a guy was shot in the parking lot... it may be a nice shiny new stadium with 'high-tech' but it breeds badly behaving Giants fans just the same.....
Posted by: sportsfan | January 10, 2008 at 11:07 AM
I'm not saying this type of retarded behavior doesn't happen at Dodger's stadium since I know it does, but I will say that I have never seen it in the seats I usually get when I go. Usually I sit in the lower parts of the stadium either near the 3rd base line or 1st base line in the outfield. I know it sucks that you have to get a more expensive seat to not have to worry about drunken people yelling at you, but that might be the route to go.
Posted by: Eric Vierling | January 10, 2008 at 12:14 PM
It is never OK to get all drunked up and swear at anytime. Especially at a game with lots of kids around. We must remember that sports is entertainment and really has no effect on our personal lives. It is a freaking game.
Posted by: Jim | January 10, 2008 at 12:20 PM
I've grown up a Dodger fan all my life and I love my team, its stadium, and all its history, but growing up, I don't recall it being like this until several years ago. I currently live in San Francisco for the past eight years and attend all the games of LA/SF series at AT&T and I get my share of trash talking, but for the most part I get along with the people around my seats and have never had any kind of an incident happen to me. I also travel to LA a lot to see Dodger games as well and every time I see some of our fans acting like bullies and punks to the opposition's fans, I can't help, but feel embarrased. What a poor reflection for the fans who go for the sport and to support the team the right way. Its such a disappointment because I don't want our fan base to have the "Raider Fan" stigma to go along with it. Unfortunately, these idiot fans do, and refuse to grow up, and thats just sad. Last year at opening day against Colorado I thought I just about had enough when guys were throwing ice at a girl and then got in her face after the game. I so do wish security could be stronger to handle and control the bad crowd, so opposing fans feel safe. I welcome the rival fans; its never a game unless you hve rival fans there as they watch their team lose. I really hope this gets better than worst because I don't want to have to give up going to Dodger Stadium because I'm disgusted by the way some of our fans behave. Baseball is a game of Class and some folks just don't seem to get that.
Posted by: JCA | January 10, 2008 at 02:32 PM
AK/BK,
If you guys have the SLIGHTEST ability to get someone in the Dodgers meaningful hierarchy to listen, make sure they know how agitated the blog is on the subject of rowdy fans at the bleoved Ravine. I rarely agree with Padres fans about much, but I agree the situation is out of control too, too many times. The announcements with Tommy in English and Raffy or Olmedo in Spanish were certainly well intended but they are not remotely enough.
I do NOT agree there is anything wrong with Dodgers Stadium itself. If anything, it is more physically well maintained than I've seen it in a long, long time...even though many are troubled by the additional advertising. I think the Padres fans are all wet on that subject. It is an acknowledged treasure of the MLB.
But those rowdy fans? If the Dodgers truly want to keep the good, reasonable and devoted fans they have to come down HARD, HARD, HARD and consistently. I know many life long fans that are very reluctant to attend games anymore. I hate that. I think the Dodgers need more and better (meaning bigger and better outfitted) Security and they need to have a no tolerance policy and toss people out - escort them to their cars and out of the parking lot. If they don't "get" this? They're not going to re-attract the good fans AFTER something or several somethings truly ugly (knifings, shootings, beatings) make the news. They aren't going to come back. Over the years the Dodgers have led MLB in many ways; a NO TOLERANCE policy for fan abuse ought to be next and ought ot be trumpetted. Better fix it NOW.
Posted by: Dan in Pasadena | January 10, 2008 at 03:13 PM
Well said, Dan!!! When the Padres fans are insulting Dodgers Stadium and calling it ugly and disgusting, remember, they have never seen World Series Champions flags flying in the outfield of the old Murph or new PETCO Litter Box, and most likely never will. It must unsettling for opposing fans for them to see a collection of World Series Banners when they visit Dodger Stadium. Despite their cheap shots, Dodger Stadium is a historical gem and the McCourts have endeavored to make it even better.
However, it is absolutely not right that opposing teams' fans have to fear for their physical safety while at Dodger Stadium. A little mild-mannered, back and forth verbal banter is great, and can even enhance the ballpark experience, if it is intelligent, witty, and non-vulgar (see: the Bronx Zoo @ Yankee Stadium). But I think I speak for the VAST majority of Dodgers Fans when I say that I want my favorite team's home stadium to be a safe and comfortable place for ALL fans to see a ball game at, regardless of their team affiliation.
Posted by: DodgerBlueBalls | January 10, 2008 at 04:04 PM
I am an avid lifelong dodgers fan here in Denver... and regularly make it to the dodger-rockies games at Coors field... And although its obviously not a longtime rivalry like the Giants-Dodgers are, since 1993 when the Rockies started I have NEVER had a bad experience wearing my Dodger blue by anyone, and there is always a large number of Dodgers fans in the crowd and in all those years I dont recall ever seeing any fights or taunting or anything like that just some good natured bantering back and forth... of course we are usually steamrolling the rockies anyway.... think the rockies fans are used to it.
Posted by: Kevin | January 10, 2008 at 07:53 PM
Living up here in remote Alaska, I haven't been to a Dodger game in 20 years. With the hiring of Torre and the signing of Jones and Kuroda, I am fired up, and have already tried (unsuccessfully, tickets not yet available) to get tickets for opening day on March 31 against the Giants. A lifelong Dodger fan, I listen to Vin and the boys do Dodger games on XM all season long, and reading these blogs about crowd issues is very disheartening. My last memory of Chavez was with my young kids back in 1986 and it was great. So tell me, is it worth a trip to LA, or will it be a bad experience?
Posted by: Cordova Blue | January 10, 2008 at 08:29 PM
I grew up going to Dodger games in the 70s.
I would never even consider going to a game with this generation of "fans."
If you want to see the future of this country, go to a Dodger game.
Posted by: wausroamer | January 11, 2008 at 03:18 PM
I'm currently stationed down here in San Diego and since i'm in the military and have to watch our moving weight allowance I've never really gotten into purchasing Dodger sportswear, so when I go to the "Litterbox" I don't receive any hassles but I've seen on the few occasions I've went other Dodger fans who fly the colors getting it from the Padre fans as we leave the park. So all you Padre Fans who have put down Chavez Ravine need to look in the mirror about PetCo Park before throwing stones.
Posted by: K T USN | January 11, 2008 at 10:10 PM
CordovaBlue - I would say come on down from Alaska to a game and you'll enjoy yorself immensely but do NOT sit in the Top Deck or even out anywhere near the ends of the Reserved Level. I won't even mention the Pavillion. A small but vocal minority out there have no access to beer but some of them make up for it by getting liquored up out in the parking lot before hand....either that or they don't need liquor to be obnoxious and even dangerous sometimes. Look, you're not going to get shot or anything. Its not like that. Its just a relatively small minority that are consistently at the stadium almost LOOKING to make trouble, screaming in your face for the full nine....well, mostly :>) I LOVE MY DODGERS, but I am sick of these few.
Posted by: Dan in Pasadena | January 12, 2008 at 07:46 AM
As your venerable Dodger fan living in the Bay Area & as a life long Dodger fan who was 10 years old when the Dodgers came to L.A. thus remembering all the fanfare with Walter O'malley and the Dodgers/Giants move west i want to share a certain perspective. The Dodgers/Giants rivalry has always been heated and hotly contested of course going back to the Brooklyn/New York days with the "shot heard 'round the world" when the Giants cheated electronically probably even on Bobby Thompsons home run. With Willie/Mickey/Duke, boys of Summer, coming west with Mays/McCovey etc vs Koufax/Drysdale/Wills etc it has always been a fierce rivalry between respected adversaries, hard fought with each taking great pride in knocking the other out of the pennant race and taking great joy in doing so. Now in my experience in L.A. the rivalry was always heated but friendly. Oh we yelled but yet respected the Giants and went out for a drink with our rivals after the games. When I moved to S.F. I had no idea how hated the Dodgers were up here & I mean by the announcers, talk radio, the fans etc. We Dodger fans are looked upon as lesser beings spawn of the satanic Dodgers & how could we possibly like the Dodgers or demon L.A.! It has been in very recent years that Dodger Stadium has become hostile to Giants fans (and apparently Padres fans). I get to a lot of games at Dodger Stadium when down on music business & have not seen any violent reactions but I haven't been to see the Giants yet. So therefore my take is that as Dodger fans have heard of the hostility we recieve in San Francisco (and it is like a small southern town when it comes to sports) L.A. fan are reacting in kind as there are a lot of us in the Bay Area to make the reports. Heck, we have at times outnumbered Giants/Warrior fans up here...not anymore! So fellow Dodger fans how about we be the first to act like civilized (albiet rabit) fans and heckle the heck out of our rivals but keep it free of threats & violence eh? Let's show them we are not all Crips & maybe they'll stop actine like 'Bloods. Word.....! I'm out.
Maceo
Posted by: Maceo Campbell | January 12, 2008 at 02:53 PM
Oh and another things how many of you have attended games in New York? Philadelphia where there was a jail under Veteran's Stadium (talk about delapidated!)? How about Chicago? Ever left Yankee Stadium and fought your way out of the Bronx? How about soccer in Europe or South America with it's drunken hooligans? Let's keep a certain perspective on all this folks. Yes, we must insist on Dodger fans being hospitable to rival fans. I've been to games in Fenway park for goodness sake when where the fans are as rabid as possible but always had a good time kibbitzing with red Sox nation and enjoying it......can we not do the same at Dodger stadium? It is always serious when there is fan on fan violence and it MUST STOP! But again as i say let's keep it in perspective folks. I'm out.
Maceo
Posted by: Maceo Campbell | January 12, 2008 at 03:04 PM
Maceo,
I'm also a Dodger fan living in the Bay area. I agree with your comment in regards to how much the Giant's fans, announcers, radio personalities, etc. hate the Dodgers. I went to a game and was physically harassed while I sat in my seat. Now that I'm able to look back on that day, I realized I should have attended a day game instead of the Friday night game and I should have been more selective of the seating before I purchased my tickets.
On a different note: I've attended many Dodger games throughout my lifetime and I will admit that some and NOT ALL Dodger fans can get a little rowdy when the Padres (and the Giants) are in town. One game, the Padre fans started taunting the Dodger fans as the Dodgers were getting eliminated from playoff contention that weekend. One fan was dressed in a padre outfit with a broom, which ignited the crowd. Before you could say your full name, that fan was being shoved and the fans were tossing their drinks and food at him. If you scanned the crowd that game (back in 1996) you saw multiple fights breaking out throught the stadium. After 10 minutes, you could hear cop car sirens and there were about 6 police cars speeding to get to the stadium. Back in those days I would agree that security was horrible, but now that McCourt is the owner of the team I've seen less outrageous behavior. Then again, the games I've attended have been during the day. I also agree with the person who said that security has provided no help whatsoever because I've asked security to intervene in an incident and they refused to get invovled and asked me "what do you want me to do?" I believe security is an issue at every stadium and not only at Chavez Ravine.
Posted by: SFDodgerGirl | January 14, 2008 at 09:29 AM
I'm sure visiting fans to Dodger Stadium have experienced abuse, although I cannot recall witnessing it nearby my seat. I lived in SF for 10 years and been to many, many Dodger-Giant games. From personal experience Pacbell/AT&T/SBC/Whatever Park is Disneyland compared to Candlestick. Games at Candlestick (even if the Dodgers weren't playing!) was where I experienced the most consistent, vicious abuse. It would seem the drop in violence moving to their new park is due to; fewer seats, higher ticket prices, and more tourists equals less jerks.
I've been to a few parks around the country, and abuse directed at visiting fans from hometown fans is the same all over. If you are a fan of the visiting team, and run into a bunch of jerks, you are going to have trouble regardless of the city (or the sport for that matter).
How to eliminate it? Weed out the jerks. Impossible, I know. So the only strategy which seems to work is for Individuals to learn to regulate their behavior (as I had to in SF), which I know is difficult. First step, don't respond to verbal abuse. Also, try only wearing your cap/jersey when you are seated. I found most jerks are cowards, and enjoy the anonimity of a walking crowd. There are plenty of options, most altercations (mine included) are a two sided coin.
If you can find rival fans who "get it" enough to enjoy some genuinely friendly banter, consider yourself lucky. Otherwise, if you are at a visitors park, keep yourself in check.
Only thing I can see teams doing which will actually have an effect is mimic English football. They often (always?) implement seating whereby there are sections for "home supporters" and sections for "away supporters" separated by legions of police. This seems to work. I've seen it work in person at a Glasgow Rangers vs. Glasgow Celtic derby match in Scottland, which I believe is one of the more heated rivalries in all of sport. If you can keep Irish Catholics (Celtic fans) and Protestant English fans (Rangers fans) from brawling, you can keep Dodger and Giants/Padre fans from doing the same.
Posted by: Craig | January 14, 2008 at 01:07 PM
I grew up a Dodger fan and I will always have my devotion for them no matter where I live. I have attended several games at ATT and never have seen such ugly behavior from fans even wearing my Dodgers jersey. Granted I've always had company or box seats where people are usually calmer but still love the trash talk. It's good fun.
I have attended games in LA in the past couple of years. But my experience leaves me frustrated and sad. I will not attend another Dodger game at the Ravine because it is the 'bad' fans just make it worse for EVERYONE. There seems to be more of them nowadays. And you never know when you're going to run into an incident. It's difficult to feel safe. There are many good people that attend but I fear for the safety of my children. And I am sad that my 2 little girls will not have the same experience I had growing up attending Dodger games.
Posted by: Dodger fan in Bay Area | January 14, 2008 at 05:32 PM
Just a note to thank Dan in Pasadena and others for their suggestions and insight regarding seating/fan behavior during Dodger games. We will definitely make the pilgrimmage from Alaska for the season opener against the Giants, a day game - and keep in mind your suggestions while looking for seats as close to the playing field as possible.
Posted by: Cordova Blue | January 14, 2008 at 08:36 PM
Cordova Blue, You're very welcome. I'll be at Opening Day too. Can't wait. I also plan on being at the game at the Coliseum. To me, its a must see.
Posted by: Dan in Pasadena | January 15, 2008 at 11:35 AM