On fan behavior at playoff time
After the Dodgers finished off the Cubs Saturday night, I had a chance to get down on the field and watch the celebration. I've been in a lot of locker rooms and on a lot of fields, but that was my first chance to be down on the grass at night, with the lights still on and screaming fans still in the seats. At the risk of losing some of that impossible-to-impress, cold observer, cynical journalisty thing we're obligated to have, it was pretty cool. Makes me wish (once again) I had been born bigger, faster, and more talented, so I might have been there wearing a uniform. I watched fans throw all their love towards players like James Loney and Joe Beimel, who high-fived their way along the front rows along the third base line, and near the bullpen. They roared when Joe Torre took the mic and addressed them directly.
They were fans supporting their team. It was exciting to see, especially from that perspective.
Juxtapose that with a comment left by "Pam" on the Extra! thread the following morning. Just a line or two:
"...We attended last night's game wearing Cub's hats and shirts and were constantly the victims of attendees yelling obscenities at us; had beer, peanuts, and soda bottles thrown at us; (they serve sodas and water bottles with the caps on, so they were thrown full); were threatened physically whenever we so much as clapped for our team; told to go home; and on and on and on. We spoke to one Dodger fan who was ashamed of the way some Dodger fans act to the point where he would not bring his kids to the game..."
Not to throw a wet blanket on the fun the Dodger Nation is having right now, but Pam's description of her experience dovetails neatly into what I hear consistently about the Dodger Stadium experience, and have seen some of myself. I have a buddy who grew up a Giants fan- hardly a rabble rouser, though- who stopped going to games because he couldn't wear a hat without getting accosted, and I know people who will only bring kids if they're sitting in certain sections.
I realize people can be tough everywhere, but by reputation at least, LA Dodgers fans are known for being pretty burly. Downright brutal on occasion.
Clearly I don't spend as much time in the stands as some Blue faithful, because most of the time when I'm at the stadium, I'm working. I do try to get out into the crowd when possible, and even take in games as a "civilian" from time to time. My experiences have been mixed. I've seen some really rude behavior, plenty of fights, and language delivered without consideration of nearby ears, regardless of age. On the other hand, when I attended Game 3 of the '04 NLDS, known forever as the Lima Time game, decked out in a very cool, authentic '82 Cardinals World Series hat and a red t-shirt, I still had fun. I was heckled a little, but nothing beyond the sort of good natured trash talk you'd expect.
For some, sports is serious business, probably more serious than it should be. And as we learned during the Lakers' run to the Finals, the playoffs can take things to another level. More excitement, tension, and probably more booze, too. Things can get ugly, as they clearly were for Pam. It sucks, and shouldn't happen. Dodger Stadium, like all sporting venues, should be a place where families can come without worry, where supporters of opposing teams can soak up the view and take in a game, just as LA ex-pats ought to in other cities. This is also one of those situations where the actions of the majority can be scuttled by the minority- it only takes a few asses to ruin an experience for everyone, including supporters of the home team. Most Dodger fans show up, support their team, are respectful of those around them, and have a great time.
I realize to a large degree that in this forum, I'm basically preaching to the choir. Readers of our site (like the other good Dodger boards on the web) have too much respect for the team, too much love of the Ravine, and too many great memories to make themselves part of the problem. I'd just encourage people to think a little before they act, or have two or three extra beers too many. Nobody who stood on the field Saturday night would deny how much LA loves the Dodgers...
...but it's still just a game.
(I'm off my soapbox now.)
BK
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I hear you, and I concur with your call for fans to remember that it is just a game and that simply purchasing a ticket doesn't give one the license to act the fool. But as to the comments from Cubs fans you referenced, I would admonish them not to paint with too broad a brush. The section i was in Saturday night was boisterous, and there were Cubs fans in the section, but for the most part people were good natured. Some folks shook hands with the Cubs fans afterward in a show of sportsmanship. it does vary by section, but bad apples don't make the whole stadium full of buffoons.
Also I'd say, this is no different than any other stadium. Have these Cubs fans ever sat in their own stadium's bleachers among the Cubs bleacher bums? I mean, talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
Posted by: KFB | October 06, 2008 at 01:51 PM
after being a dodger fan in wrigley for the past 2 years, I think what Pam received is fairly typical of most drunken stadiums. Dodger fans can be brutal... but Chicagoans are rough as hell. I avoided tickets to Game 1 and 2. If I had on my Dad's 1970s Dodger jacket and my cap on during Game 2, I don't think I would have survived leaving the ball-park.
This issue has gotten real common... best to look at the sports law blog with Howard Wasserman, they have a great article on this subject... I can't remember it off the top of my head, though.
Posted by: Alec | October 06, 2008 at 01:59 PM
Thanks to fans like that we'll never see "$2 Tuesdays" again.
Quick Story: Last season, a friend and I sat in Upper Deck just behind two other Dodger fans, one wearing a Pierre jersey. When Pierre popped out to left center, my friend said "Way to go, Pierre!" sarcastically to ME (not loud, not at the other fan, just me). The fan in front of us with the Pierre jersey had a few beers in him and did not take kindly to this act of sarcasm and challenged my friend to a fight. Seriously.
Dodger Fan-on-Dodger Fan crime happens more than you think. Very embarrassing
Posted by: BoxedMike | October 06, 2008 at 02:02 PM
As a Dodger fan in the Bay Area, I have to say that the Giants' fans are at least as bad as the worst Dodger fans. I went to a game this year where people went way over the line, to the point of racism. First time I've ever left a game early...I didn't make that decision lightly. It's absurd how many people forget that it's a game.
Of course, it could be worse....Look at European soccer games.
Posted by: Banex | October 06, 2008 at 02:08 PM
I attended Saturday's game at Dodger Stadium. My husband and I sat in the Right Field pavilion.
On an early trip to the bathroom, the women's room line had about 10 people in it, and the mens' room line had about 50. When I exited the bathroom to head to my seat, I was called a s***, a wh***, a b****, and a few other words that I will leave to the imagination. The men were coming right up in my face to yell at me, blocking me from walking away. One started grabbing my shirt until I told him in no certain terms to get his hands off me. My crime? Wearing a Cubs t-shirt. I didn't say anything or make any gestures to warrant any sort of response, but that is how I was treated.
I grew up in Cicero, IL. My background is as a trader on the floor of the Chicago Mercantile exchange. I have a thick skin and am not easily intimidated. I welcomed the spirited crowd in the stands booing Cubs fans going to their seats or chanting sweep or whatever - heck, they deserved a celebration. But along that hallway, I felt truly threatened.
I've lived in California for 3 years and have bought Cubs/Dodgers tickets for every series. I can't imagine ever wanting to go to Dodger Stadium again after that experience.
Posted by: sarahmas | October 06, 2008 at 02:25 PM
Hi, I was at the game on Saturday and it was an amazing experience. There were plenty of true Dodger fans enjoying the moment. However, I have to agree that there are many people there who have no clue what is going on, they have no idea about baseball. I was there with my girlfriend and I was upset that some of these people used language that would have upset me if I was a parent and had my children there. A cubs fan was a couple of rows in front of me and I don't see anything wrong with a fan cheering on his team, but it was sad to see this poor guy get soaked with beer, have peanuts and ice thrown at him. I'm a true baseball and Dodger fan. I go there to enjoy the game and it's sad to see these couple of people ruin that experience for a lot of us.
Posted by: Manuel Carrillo | October 06, 2008 at 02:42 PM
At the beginning of the game - and between halves of the first inning - the Dodgers tell fans that "if anyone is hindering their enjoyment of the game, see an usher or any security personnel." I sat on the field level, and saw not only Dodger security but LAPD officers in uniform.
It's been my experience that security has been quick to react when called upon. I suggest that those who are harassed or are victims of unsportsmanlike conduct (including having foul language directed at them) promptly call an usher who will have security take care of the problem.
Posted by: Sue Kamm | October 06, 2008 at 02:59 PM
The thing that stuns me the most about Dodger fans is that so many of them are unable to see beyond the jersey. Any player wearing a Dodger uniform is good, any player wearing an opposing uniform is bad. The fans at Chavez Ravine boo even beloved ex-Dodgers like Shawn Green and Mike Piazza, guys who played their hearts out for the franchise, didn’t want to leave, and would still be here if stupid management hadn’t made them expendable. For goodness sake, Paul LoDuca cried when they traded him. Yet fans booed him when he returned as a member of the Mets.
The rooting for shirts clearly extends to people in the seats. It’s almost a Pavlovian reaction: anyone wearing Dodger paraphernalia= good; anyone with opposing team merchandise=bad. That’s a simplistic attitude at best, but beyond the pale when it comes to verbally or physically abusing others. There’s simply no place for that in a stadium.
I don’t know what can be done about it, however. There will always be louts in any crowd that ruin a good time for the rest of us. And no number of restrictions on the amount of beer sold is going to stop those people from tanking up in the parking lot before the game.
Frankly, the Dodgers could do a lot on this score by employing more ushers. They don’t have to be menacing security guards, just a presence that reminds people to treat their fellow fans with some basic respect.
Posted by: SaMo | October 06, 2008 at 03:08 PM
The only way to stop this boorish behavior is to stop serving alcohol at games. Most sober people don't act this way. But I doubt that will happen because they can get high prices for beer at games, and the owners can use that money to buy better players. I am a Dodgers fan, and I went to an Angels/Sox playoff game on Friday night. Red Sox fans were loud and boisterous. If they do that at Dodger stadium, they're going to go out on stretchers.
Posted by: Steve Wimer | October 06, 2008 at 03:09 PM
I have been going to games since I was 3 months old (now I am 26). In the many years and games I have gone to, I have NEVER seen that kind of demeaning and offensive behavior. I have sat in every section of dodger stadium, except for the left/right field pavilions (though, I hear they can be rowdy. Never sat there because I heard they didn't see beer there, haha). The most I have seen is the typical 'angels suck' when we played the freeway series or the taunting of "BARRY" when we played the giants. I am a dodgers fan, so I have never had the luxury of being heckled by fellow dodger fans. However, on only a few occasions, padres, cubs and giants fans be mean to me at there stadiums or at dodgers stadium. I apologize for those who have been very badly treated, thats not right. But I guess I am guiltyof being non-family friendly. I like to yell out bulls*** on bad blues calls...sorry... lol.
Posted by: stephanie | October 06, 2008 at 03:18 PM
That is a LOAD of CRAP. Pam is FULL of IT.
Every year I spend my own dime to travel across multiple cities to watch the Dodgers play. I’ve been to Wrigley. I’ve been to St Louis. Philly. Miami. Pittsburgh. Boston. New York…to name a few. I’ve been to more baseball cities than the ones I haven’t been to. Hell, I’ve even been up to Toronto to watch a game while I was visiting there.
I’ve been challenged at just about EVERY stadium. Some more than others. My rule of thumb is that the more passionate and fanatical the city is about their team the more unruly it tends to be (made worse by a rivalry game). Case in point, no one gives a damn about the Pirates in Pittsburgh therefore the likelihood of getting into an altercation is minimal, yet I’ve still encountered them. Wrigley was horrible when I went there about 5 years ago. People think Philly is bad, Chicago was right up there. St. Louis surprised me though. One day I sat in the “good” seats and never had a problem. Another day I sat in a not so good area and got into a fight (a fist fight, not some stupid shouting match). Why do I bring up St. Louis? Well, because that place is not known to have unruly fans. Yet you see what happened.
I expected New York and Boston to be bad…they didn’t disappoint.
The visiting fan has a lot to do with it as well. How do we know Pam wasn’t instigating some smack-talk with the Dodger fans, typical of most Cubs fans? I know Philly is bad, but even though I’ve had some horrible things thrown my way it’s never escalated into anything worse because I behave myself as a visiting fan. Understand that sometimes you may not be looking for trouble, but trouble may looking for you (as it did in St. Louis for me).
Back to why Pam is full of it. Her little spiel is clearly something she dug out of a message board or a blog. Kind of funny that she made the Raider comparison after one trip to the stadium, probably without any idea how a Raider fan behaves in the first place. And no, Dodger Stadium fans don’t walk around with a pinkie up in the air saying “What Raider-like behavior” at the first sign of someone raising their voice, so there goes that ridiculous claim. Pam is just full of sour grapes since there’s no Bartman or goat to blame this time around since the Dodgers whooped on the Cubs thoroughly and soundly.
I also find it funny that she’s addressing Philly fans, who used to have a courthouse and detention center in their stadium to sentence the large number of unruly fans. If I could post some of the things that I witnessed said to women and children in Philly it would have to be on HBO prime time due to the language and content.
I’m not saying the situation at The Ravine has not deteriorated. I’m just saying it’s ludicrous to single out Dodger Stadium as the only place in the country with these problems. Pam probably saw a Hispanic person for the first time, saw a tattoo, and probably automatically assumed a drive by would ensue. She probably saw some black people and automatically thought she took a wrong turn on Crenshaw Blvd. The truth is Pam wouldn’t feel safe unless she was surrounded by rich white people since we all know THEY don’t commit any crimes.
Hey Pam, if you’re so worried about fans yelling obscenities and having stuff thrown at you, I would suggest you stay away from Wrigley. It’s not often fans can make a grown man (Manny) blush with some of the things they say…and it’s not often fans take it upon themselves to throw baseballs at the opposition (again, Manny).
Posted by: LoLo | October 06, 2008 at 03:25 PM
As I hope I made clear in the post, I don't mean to impugn all Dodgers fans for the behavior of a few. Most fans, like most fans in most cities, "get it," and keep everything in proper perspective. They go, they have fun, support the team, and are respectful. My point, though, is that both from my experience and by reputation, Dodger Stadium is not known as all that family friendly a place, especially for visiting fans. I know the team knows that rep, and are trying to fix it.
Is it this bad at other stadiums? I'm sure it is, at least at some. But it's probably better at many others, too, though at any gathering of 40K+ where booze is served, there are bound to be knuckleheads. What I was trying to say was that even in the playoffs, it's important for people to keep a little perspective. It is, in the end, just a game. It's just sports. If the Dodgers lose this round to the Phillies, the sun will still rise, etc. and we'll all get back at it in the spring.
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | October 06, 2008 at 03:26 PM
I love the Dodgers, but I hate going to Dodger stadium to watch them because of the fans. It makes me sad, but its easier to stay home and enjoy the game then go to the stadium and deal with the multitude of stupidity that seems to infest the seats. If I want to enjoy a game I have to go to Angel Stadium.
Posted by: Sad and Blue | October 06, 2008 at 03:37 PM
And by the way, BK, I know you have some web space to fill until Thursday, but I would expect better of you than to single out one person’s negative comment and derive a whole thread from a source without any credibility, especially given the fact that anyone with internet access is has the anonymity to post whatever ridiculous claim they feel like typing up without any accountability.
“Not to throw a wet blanket on the fun the Dodger Nation is having right now, but Pam's description of her experience dovetails neatly into what I hear consistently about the Dodger Stadium experience”
Yeah, a little too neatly, don’t you think?
And it’s not a coincidence that all of these trashing comments are appearing in bulk, and it certainly is not a coincidence that they’re all written by people who don’t even blog here. I’m sure they’re coming from one or two people posting as multiple writers.
Posted by: LoLo | October 06, 2008 at 03:38 PM
Lolo-
I can understand why you're upset, but there isn't much that's random about the post, but rather it was the spark to write something that has been on my mind for a while, but that I haven't written about for one reason or another. Hers is a story I hear a fair amount, from Dodger fans and people visiting from other stadiums. Sitting in the stands, I've seen a lot of really effed up behavior, and watched many a fight erupt around the stadium from the press box.
I can tell you that what I wrote isn't based on one post, or one person's experience, but both things I've seen, other stories I've heard, and reputation talking to other baseball fans in other cities.
I think your point that you can find this at many stadiums is spot on. It's not specific to Dodger Stadium, as if everywhere else people can go is some sort of idyllic wonderland free of the idiot factor. It's more harsh than some places I've been for sure (including Wrigley as a Cards fan- but maybe I caught them on a good series). I think it's fair to say that there's a fan behavior problem at the Ravine. And like most problems of this sort, the actions of the few negate those of the many.
BK
Posted by: Brian Kamenetzky | October 06, 2008 at 03:52 PM
I can't imagine taking my newborn son to a game anytime soon unless I'm sitting in the expensive seats. I remember my dad taking me to games in the early 90's and not having any problems, but even I'm scared now sometimes at games. Gangster hooligans that sit behind you and shout profanity constantly. It makes me want to become an Angels fan just so I can take my son to a game and not have to worry about my safety.
Posted by: nathan118 | October 06, 2008 at 03:56 PM
And Lolo, what you're experiencing is called "denial."
Posted by: nathan118 | October 06, 2008 at 03:57 PM
Do any of you people actually think that the fans in other ballparks or arenas do not act the same way? The woman from Chicago who complained is delusional. It happens at Wrigley, it happens at Chase Field, it happens at Yankee Stadium, it happens everywhere. IF you can't take a little heat at a ball game then watch from home. And if the behavior crosses the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable then it's YOUR obligation to notify the organization and contact either security or the LAPD at the game itself, otherwise how can the Dodgers correct it or protect you? The fact remains that all of you people are speaking in generalizations about Dodger fans specifically without contemplating that it happens everywhere and can happen at any time. I've been to about 1/2 of all the MLB ballparks, I've been to pro football games, I've been to TONS of college football games including bowl games. You know what, you can expect the same behavior at each and every one of these events. But if you don't notify security, the LAPD or any other Dodgers personnel then you're just contributing to the problem.
Posted by: Fletch Baddgur | October 06, 2008 at 03:57 PM
I am a Dodger fan for over 23 years. I went to the game on Saturday night and it was the BEST game I have been to. The most energetic, fans standing practically the entire game and the end result...of course AMAZING!!! I will never forget that game. The fans in my area of the LFP were loud and sometimes mean, but I was thankful to get out of there without a fight happening around me and my family. I did feel bad for the Cub fans while leaving early the Dodger fans singing HEY HEY GOODBYE, but isnt this how the Cubs fans treat Dodgers fans on their turf and then some? So its all just a game, its suppose to be fun and entertaining, lets just know the limit and have a good time.
Posted by: Linda | October 06, 2008 at 04:01 PM
LOL ever been to a Raider game?
Posted by: k217 | October 06, 2008 at 04:11 PM
To LoLo:
I'm not lying and I am not full of it. I never post as anyone but myself. What I described did happen to me. I don't trash talk and I'm not cocky, ESPECIALLY not when I am rooting for the visiting team.
I know jerks are jerks everywhere and I don't think all Dodgers fans are like that. I avoid the bleachers at Wrigley (so overrated and overrun with jerks) and have myself told people abusing other fans to shut the f up.
And by the way? Half of Chicago is latino and about 100% of the neighborhood I grew up in. And that wasn't true of the entire bathroom line that I had to walk past.
But whatever, i am sure you will just dismiss it anyway and then go back and harass more women at the next game you attend.
Posted by: sarahmas | October 06, 2008 at 04:16 PM
Steve Wimer:
I totally agree about banning alcohol. It's unfortunate that people have brought this on themselves, but that's how bad things have become. I would argue that stadiums also should keep out people who are obviously drunk. Nearly every bad experience I've had at a ballpark, at a concert, at any event has been a result of drunkenness. People are too immature to moderate their own behavior, so someone else should take that responsibility.
Posted by: Banex | October 06, 2008 at 04:17 PM
I have been to regular season games vs. the Cubs and we were outnumbered by Cub fans and intimidated.
They ganged up on us and we had to leave.
In our own stadium no less!
So this article is way off base, just like the Cubs were.
Go Dodgers.
Posted by: Mike Dills | October 06, 2008 at 04:17 PM
BK,
There is a lot of merit to what you wrote, and given that you attend the games at The Ravine 81 times a year, I certainly put a lot of weight into what you have to say.
It’s not the content that disappoints me (I’m certainly not going to sit here and say our stuff doesn’t stink), it’s the timing. And even though you say it’s been on your mind for a while, it’s the fact that an anonymous blogger - with what I perceive as clear intentions to ruin the party - was able to throw your timing off. Not only that, but you enabled the person by posting a direct quote from their post. To me, it creates a bad precedence, and I think the onslaught of anonymous posters was to be expected given that Cub fans aren’t the happiest bunch right about now. As I stated before, it was as clear as day that Pam was merely trying to rain on the parade by digging up references she clearly found on the internet.
This conversation would be a very interesting one had it occurred some other time. I know the intent here is to get people to post their opinion, but I think the bad outweighs the good at this time since emotions are running high right now with Cub fans trolling the websphere trying to find company for their misery. To me, the conversation lost it’s merit and it’s luster because of the timing.
It’s your blog, and I’m certainly not trying to manipulate what you write about. I respect you too much to even attempt such a thing. As a long-time reader of both your blogs, your ESPN articles, and your published book, I’m just letting you know I was disappointed.
Posted by: LoLo | October 06, 2008 at 04:21 PM
Totally agree BK and Pam and the other folks that believe that it's not just a Dodger Stadium problem. It is the state of most sporting events.
I do agree that this needs to be addressed. I've seen people completely harass Giants fans at Dodger games to a point that I thought the person's life was in danger. I've had a friend from San Diego (a diminutive woman) have food thrown at her.
What it really comes down to is that we say that going to a sporting event should be a safe and fun place to bring all types of people together, kids and adults, men and women, families and friends, but since these events sell alcohol, you will always get this type of behavior.
How often to you bring your 5 year old to the local sports bar? What's the difference when you take them to the game and there is an alcohol stand at every isle? You stop selling alcohol and you will eliminate many of these occurrences. BUT...that will never happen as we know how much revenue the selling of beer can create for the ball club. It's all a bit hypocritical. The song goes "buy me some peanuts and cracker jacks...” not "Coors lite and a Bud."
In any case, the stadium needs to do a better job of controlling said behavior before something bad happens.
(off the soap box)
also, your blog, you can blog about whatever you want. if you wan to blog about how stale the pretzels are in section 30 feel free.
peace
Posted by: jq | October 06, 2008 at 04:44 PM