Manny G?
Interesting stuff today from ESPN.com's Buster Olney on The Manny Situation, and how the Giants might still fit into the equation:
"...Lo and behold, the Giants have emerged as a player in this bidding. But it remains to be seen whether they are going to be shoving big chips at Ramirez, or if they're just hanging in the thing to position themselves in the event Ramirez gets so frustrated with the Dodgers that he'll walk away from L.A., at any price. It's possible the Giants are not really bidding up Ramirez, but just hoping that a Hall of Fame bargain with a chip on his shoulder drops in their lap.
"We're still talking to him," Giants president Larry Baer said on Friday, "and we have interest. But it's one of those things where it's got to fit. "Manny fits in one respect -- most obvious respect and probably the most important respect. He's a great cleanup hitter. But you have to look at the rest of it, how the contract fits, how the defense fits … On one hand, we'd like to do it, but we believe we've improved the team considerably..."
Things have reached the point where we've all started talking about the possibility of a team causing itself trouble by underbidding (didn't see that coming a few months back, I admit) on Manny, something Olney touches on as well:
"...Some rival executives believe that the Dodgers could offer a two-year, $30 million deal to Ramirez and still have the highest bid on the table -- and of course, two years and $30 million would represent less money than Ramirez would've made had he just stayed with the Red Sox. But part of the discussion, within the L.A. front office, has been about what number would completely embarrass Ramirez to the point that he would roll over on his team, in the way that he did in Boston..."
It certainly adds a level of intrigue, no doubt. As Spring Training approaches, those players still left on the market- and there are some useful ones- will begin to suck it up and sign. Where, I have no idea. I've never been good at predicting the markets. But there will definitely be short term bargains, like the Cardinals had last season with Kyle Lohse. Could be the marquee names like Adam Dunn, could be Bobby Abreu, or Manny, or Braden Looper, or Ben Sheets, or dudes lower down the ladder, but at some point, the remaining dominoes will fall.
Rob Neyer has some interesting thoughts as well about where Manny should go. LA... south.
BK
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Hey BK
I mentioned that very thing on the last thread. I didn't call it underbidding but I sure said Manny could be upset and sign with a host of other teams. This may cause Manny to make a move that he really doesn't want to make. This is a dangerous move by the McCourt and Ned if they truly do want Manny in left this year. As Benzo has said many, many, times "Pay the man his money". Also, while they are at it, quit being so cheap and be Southern California's finest, and start telling the truth.
Package
Posted by: Package | January 31, 2009 at 01:52 PM
Would the perfect offer be called hitting the Manny G Spot?
Posted by: benzojones | January 31, 2009 at 03:30 PM
I find it hard to understand some one who could be insulted at making 30 million dollars in two years...
How about a little reality?
Posted by: Andy B | January 31, 2009 at 03:37 PM
Hi all- Look at Don Mattingly doing a comic skit on Will Farrell's comedy site -funny or die --
check out http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/4e416c0372/donnie-racquetball
Posted by: Nelson Smith | January 31, 2009 at 04:41 PM
The question is can the Dodgers be competitive without Manny. Consider that the starting pitching will almost assuredly be weaker next year without Lowe, and there were no other real upgrades on offense (although you could argue that the offense will be better because A Jones won't be hitting in LA). The answer is a pretty obvious no. Therefore, quit ticking the guy off and get him back on the roster. With the attendance the Dodgers get, they owe it to the fans to make sure they at least have a shot at being competitive.
Posted by: Paul Merrill | January 31, 2009 at 07:30 PM
Andy,
It's all relative. Manny gave up two guaranteed $20 million years when Boras agreed to forgo the two option years in his contract for an agreement that granted him free agency this year. You can be sure that he would be plenty miffed if he were forced to sign for less.
I doubt if he ends up signing for 2 years at $30 million. What he eventually signs for is anybody's guess. I just hope it's with the Dodgers.
Posted by: Brooklyn Dodger | January 31, 2009 at 07:34 PM
Andy B,
I don't think it's a matter of Manny being insulted as much as he will feel like he is "losing face" if ends up
having take under $20 million because he worked so hard to get out of the Boston contract that would have paid him that.
The fact is, Manny has a lot of personal pride. It's a big part of the reason that he's as great a hitter as he is. If the Dodgers want him (and want him to be motivated), they need to offer him something over $20 million for the next 2 years. I know they already did that once and they are "waiting for a counter offer", but if I'm them, I'd make him another offer. I don't know where he'll end up, but for the first time, I'm starting to doubt that it will be in LA.
Posted by: OhioVic | January 31, 2009 at 07:40 PM
Paul,
If he's healthy, re-signing Furcal is an upgrade to the offense. I also believe that DeWitt could be an upgrade over Kent at 2B. Factor in a growth in power from Ethier, Kemp, Loney, and Martin (assuming he's given more regular rest), and I do believe the non-Manny part of the lineup has been upgraded. All that said, I am still convinced that signing Manny is critical to the offense, not only because of what he brings at the plate, but also what he contributes to the rest of lineup by his very presence.
Posted by: Brooklyn Dodger | January 31, 2009 at 07:43 PM
I forget who it was, but someone asked about Lucas May a while back, and I responded with the information that in their 2008 Prospect Handbook, Baseball America rated him the #17 prospect in the Dodgers organization. I just received the 2009 Prospect Handbook, and he's now rated # 28. He's still considered a work in progress, both offensively and defensively. Last year he committed 24 passed balls (he had 31 in 2007), and threw out 29 percent of basestealers.
Here's the top 31 prospects in the Dodgers system, as rated by Baseball America.
#1 - Andrew Lambo, OF
#2 - James McDonald, RHP
#3 - Ethan Martin, RHP
#4 - Josh Lindblom, RHP
#5 - Scott Elbert, LHP
#6 - Ivan DeJesus Jr., SS/2B
#7 - Devaris Gordon, SS
#8 - Josh Bell, 3B
#9 - Chris Withrow, RHP
#10 - Nathan Eovaldi, RHP
#11 - Austin Gallagher, 3B
#12 - Ramon Troncoso, RHP
#13 - Pedro Baez, 3B
#14 - Travis Schlicting, RHP
#15 - Steven Johnson, RHP
#16 - Xavier Paul, OF
#17 - Kyle Russell, OF
#18 - Jon Michael Redding, RHP
#19 - Tony Delmonico, C/2B
#20 - Justin Miller, RHP
#21 - Brent Leach, LHP
#22 - Jamie Hoffman, OF
#23 - Daigoro Rondon, RHP
#24 - Victor Garate, LHP
#25 - Javy Guerra, RHP
#26 - James Adkins, LHP
#27 - Alfredo Silverio, OF
#28 - Lucas May, C
#29 - Josh Wall, RHP
#30 - Jordon Pratt, RHP
#31 - Justin Orenduff, RHP
Of course, these are just names, and chances are that most of them will never set foot in Dodger Stadium in a Dodgers uniform.
Posted by: Brooklyn Dodger | January 31, 2009 at 08:43 PM
Paul, you're missing the point. We're going to sign Manny. We need him more than any other team, and in the end we'll have the highest offer on the table. But to stay on the right course here, Ned has to wait for Boras to make an offer. It's Boras' move. Ned has to just sit tight. If Boras wants to drag this nonsense into Spring Training, well, that's the only card he has. Dude's the kind of guy to drag it out over one card.
Blame where blame is due people. And if part of the concern is seriously that Manny will mope for two years of a down contract, then sign him for one year. If he mopes about that, we shouldn't sign him at all. Whining should never be rewarded.
Posted by: VA Blueblood | January 31, 2009 at 08:50 PM
Adam Dunn is looking like a much better option personally. Could get him a LOT cheaper, and no drama. Use the money we save and shore up the pitching.
Posted by: nathan118 | February 01, 2009 at 09:46 AM
BD,
Nobody forced Manny to play himself out of the last two option years of his contract with Boston. He thought he could get more on the free agent market, he gambed and lost. It was a risk he took and he failed to consider all the ramifications of his actions. A true professional would see the current market for what it is, swallow his pride and play hard for whatever amount he could get even if that means playing for a "measly" $15-18M/year. I don't see why Manny should be rewarded with a contract way above current market prices because of the threat that he may not play hard for less. Why would we even want a player like that on the team. Unprofessional behavior should not be rewarded.
Notice that no one is wondering whether Pat Burrell, Andy Pettite, etc. will be moping around next year because they will be making less money than they originally thought they could get.
Posted by: HardHittin25 | February 01, 2009 at 11:57 AM
Paul,
The Dodgers might feel they will be competitive w/ or w/o Manny... I think they will not be competitve either way in 2009... and I'm always an optimist when it comes to the Dodgers... this is not good.
VA Blue,
I agree with you in that it is Boras' move. The guy is using the oldest trick in negotiations in the waiting game. And Ned is right to wait this out, however, I think people are questioning the REAL reason why Ned is waiting Boras out. Is it because Ned is a shrewd negotiator??... or is it because Ned and Frank really don't want to pay Manny what he is worth?? (they are cheap?). I'd like to believe the former but given Ned's history so far, I fear it is the latter.
Posted by: Rob | February 01, 2009 at 12:08 PM
Here’s how manny should be signed to his contract.
1) Whatever the amount he must give it his all.
2) If he starts being a pain in the butt contract is void.
3) If his attitude is professional and he produces World Series than can get up to 20% raise.
4) Years 3, 4, 5, are optional by player and management.
Now if he signs that will be great otherwise we go with what we have and that’s it.
Posted by: pk-in-the-mesa | February 02, 2009 at 06:06 AM
They CANNOT let him sign with that organization they call a "team" up North, nor should they let him go to ANY other team within their division. That's suicide and handing that team the NL West. GET IT OVER WITH AND SIGN HIM ALREADY. I'm sick of this topic!
Posted by: Steve | February 02, 2009 at 08:56 AM
The more I think about this idea that we need to pay Manny above the current market for him or he won't play hard... the more angry I get about it. Folks, compare this to your own job situation. Personally, every teacher I know is technically making less this year than they were last year (salaries were all frozen, but health insurance premiums went up 4 to 8%, depending on your situation). Our contracts for '09-'10 are coming out soon, and we have been braced for the fact that our salaries will in fact be reduced.
Now does this mean I'm going to slack off and not work as hard for my students next year? Or that because I have less money in my pocket this year, I mope about my classroom and let kids NOT learn? Absolutely not, and I would publicly chastise any of my colleagues who did such. In fact, I would advocate that they be released and both their students and salaries dispersed among the dedicated faculty. Professionals do their best work regardless of compensation.
But fans here still think that Manny might act unprofessionally, so we should pay him more than he's worth so that he tries hard...!?!?! Because he would whine and mope and sulk and slack over the fact that he's making $15 million dollars a year to play a game he loves!?!?!? That is not only absurd, it's downright insulting. Raise your hand if you're NOT impacted by this economy. Anybody? Anybody?
Of course there's nobody, we're all affected by the state of the economy, and if Manny Ramirez is going to use a down economy as an excuse to not be a professional, well, good riddance to bad rubbish.
Posted by: VA Blueblood | February 02, 2009 at 09:41 AM
Maybe McParking lot is a genius. His whole plan was too look really cheap for five years so players would give up thinking they would get signed by the Dodgers for a lot of money and now he can start signing discount contracts. Flaming brilliant
No Manny = No of my money
Posted by: Crash Burn | February 02, 2009 at 09:47 AM
The new offer to Manny reminds me of the old nostalgic stories one would tell about their dads.
'Dad offers the used car salesman $1200 for the '56 chevy. The salesman replies I can let you have it for $1500. Dad counters with an offer of $1000!! That slimy salesman couldn't push my old man around."
David S
Posted by: David s | February 02, 2009 at 06:43 PM
I hope the Gnats dont sneak in and offer 2-50, or 3-75....then Manny will be in SF.
Take the deal Manny, $25 mil is nothing to sneeze at!!!
Posted by: Jesse from SC | February 02, 2009 at 07:57 PM
In a strange way, I almost hope Manny signs elsewhere to seal my hatred of the McCourts. Anyone who thinks this team will score runs the a murderers' row of Kemp, Ethier and Loney knows nothing about baseball. If only I could make myself root for the Angels.
Posted by: lagata | February 02, 2009 at 08:13 PM
The new offer to Manny is a great move by Ned. Certainly the market will "heat up" for Manny by next year. At least that's what Scott ("where is my next commission") Boras is hoping. Manny will be ready to move on after having to suffer the indignity of playing a game for "only" $25 mil a year and he can go DH in the entertainment league, instead of playing real baseball. I say sign Bobby Abreau, bundle Pierre plus a prospect or two for a decent pitcher and let Manny go play for the Royals...
Russell
Posted by: Russell | February 02, 2009 at 08:28 PM
I'd like to know how people can say that McCourt is cheap.
A good baseball mind, probably not.
But cheap? It just doesn't compute.
Shall we go through the names yet again - Schmidt, Jones, Pierre,...
You get the idea? Cheap no! Wise, well that's another story.
Posted by: ApaulO | February 02, 2009 at 08:38 PM
I am disappointed in the Dodgers for caving in and offering a higher annual salary. Now that Manny has rejected it, I hope they just let him go and sign Adam Dunn instead.
Posted by: HardHittin25 | February 03, 2009 at 07:19 AM
ATTENTION DODGER FANS; Take a deep breath and release.
This is simply Scott Boras negotiating in the media and the Dodgers have nothing to be ashamed about after offering $$$TWENYFIVE MILLION$$$ to play leftfield for 1 year in a great city, with great fans and a easy media.......and the 2nd biggest media market in the nation.
Manny was awesome last year and I hope he comes back but if he does or does not...really folks......let this play out and don't make the McCourts the bad guys.
Frank McCourt has poured alot of money into this team AND
He has made a ton of money since he became owner. Im ok with McCourt.
But with Eitheir, Kemp, Martin and Looney all 1 year older, I feel good about this team. If they don't sign Manny......then lets go Juan Pierre.
But relax and don't let ESPN and rumors on the internet drive you crazy.
Posted by: Dodger Fan since 1973 | February 03, 2009 at 02:32 PM
Looks like Ned has finally posted a comment on this board. He just signed his name as 'Dodger fan since 1973'
David
Posted by: David s | February 03, 2009 at 06:46 PM